BC literally means "Before Christ". smiddy3, do you think there were Christians 100 years before Christ was born, or you believe Christ was born about 100 years before the conventional date of his birth year? Or, if you don't believe in a supernatural Christ, do you think there were Christians about 100 years before the year that the NT Bible says (or implies) Christ was born? If you mean the latter, I think you might be correct in that view.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them
by Anony Mous inso a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.
if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.
now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.
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Disillusioned JW
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The Left and Present Truth
by neat blue dog inadd yet another jw similarity to the list:.
they say now the difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth is a matter of weeks.
things like the effectiveness of masks and the vaccine, the origin of covid-19 in a lab, clinton spying on trump, the existence of a pedophile ring for the elites and more, things branded as conspiracy theories have been proven true.
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Disillusioned JW
neat blue dog, I am a far left person who does not say (nor define) that "the difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth is a matter of weeks". Where do you get the idea that all (or even most) people of the left say such or have such a definition?
Most of you writers in general in this topic thread, what category of left people do you non-left people (I don't want to call you "right" people, since many your stated ideas on certain topics are very wrong to me) consider to be elites? I ask that since you people seem to be excluding highly accomplished people in the following categories: scientists, inventors, scholars, athletes, actors/actresses, and most self-made billionaires who started their own companies. From what I heard in television a few years ago, you non-left people seem to be exclusively using the word "elites" the way the former President Trump did in his televised statements at rallies. Did you folks obtain that specialized unflattering usage of the word "elite" from him?
In some of your statements you non-left wingers seem to be speaking a different language (or in code) than I. In many of the ideas you non-left wingers write about in your posts on this site it like you are living in a different world (an alternate reality Earth in a universe parallel to mine) than my world (my Earth). You ideas are so alien (as in not from my world/reality) to me. In many cases it is thus hard for me to figure out how you folks get such ideas.
I wish for us (not just those on this forum) to reach agreement on a number of topics (in order to discern/discover what are truths and for society to make much greater progress), by being open minded enough and by carefully considering the ideas of each other, but I don't know if such is possible. Some of you right winger folks (not jsut ones on this site, but also ones I met in person 'face to face') even seem to have a different idea of the meaning of the word "consensus" which you seem to consider to be the only meaning of the word, not recognizing that in certain contexts it means something else.
Some of you even claim that "practically everything you read or hear through traditional media is now a lie", whereas in my world in the reality which I experience the following is what I personally observe to be the case. Practically everything I read or hear through traditional media are truths, or at least in the sense that: (1) what the media reporters (and/or the ones writing scripts for them) sincerely believed to be truths (at least in the sense of reporters believing the ones reported on actually said what they are reported to have said), and (2) what many of those speaking (such as scientists, doctors, and ordinary people) to the reporters considered to be truths.
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JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them
by Anony Mous inso a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.
if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.
now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In my prior post please feel free to ignore the fourth paragraph and the second to the last paragraph since it is redundant. I had meant to delete them after editing the post but I ran out of time to delete those paragraphs.
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JWs don’t use the apocryphal, yet source them
by Anony Mous inso a quick little note about a few things that i recently learned.
if you ever had the yellow book of bible stories, there was the story of enoch, also repeated in other watchtower publications, about the angels fathering giants and being a menace on earth.
now if you look at the nicean bible, which is the wtbts selection of the bible, it mentions enoch twice and only has a very brief passage about nephilim and ben elohim.
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Disillusioned JW
Anony Mous, this topic you started is fascinating to me, but I am puzzled by one thing you said. I notice you said "... in circulation amongst Christians ca 100BC ...". Did you instead mean to say ".... in circulation amongst Christians ca 100 AD/CE ..."? Or, are you really saying that Christians existed about 100 years before approximately 4 BC/BCE and thus about 100 years before the time the Bible says Jesus Christ was born?
A number of books of the Pseudepigrapha (meaning books authored in a false name, at least for those which claim to name the author) and the Apocrypaha were in use by Jews about the time of 100 BC/BCE, but virtually no biblical scholar says anyone back then was a Christian (though some Jews back then had some ideas which are identical with some Christian doctrines).
Readers in general, a number of books are actually Pseudepigrapha and thus are technically not Apocrypha. The Pseudepigraphal books were first written hundreds of years after the time of their alleged authors (the names that the books claim as their authors), and thus could not have been written by their alleged authors.
For example, "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" is classified by scholars as part of the Pseudepigrapha instead of as part of the Apocrypha. "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" was first written hundreds of years after the times that the patriarchs (according to the Bible) supposedly lived, and thus could not have been written by the patriarchs.
Sea Breeze, I notice you use the term "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" instead of the term "Testimony of the Twelve Patriarchs", but I presume you are talking about what Dr. Ken Johnson (in the title of a number of his books), scholars, and other people call "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs". Am I correct about that?
Readers in general, especially Sea Breeze, "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" is not classified by biblical scholars as part of the Apocrypha; it is classified by scholars as part of the Pseudepigrapha. It was written in stages and first began to be written hundreds of years after the time that the patriarchs (according to the Bible) supposedly lived, and thus could not have been written by the patriarchs.
The pre-first century AD/CE fragments which have been found of "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" do not contain any of the Christianity theology contained in the Christian era editions of "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs. It is thus uncertain if any of the Christian theology was ever contained in the "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" prior to the first century AD/CE. I know that because I studied that subject to see if such is the case or not. If Dr. Ken Johnson claims that one or more of fragments does contain Christian theology (of kind not found in the Bible) then I would like information about that.
I had first looked into this matter more than 15 years ago when I was still a Christian and I had owned books about the Pseudepigrapha and the Apocrypaha, including a book which contained an English translation of the "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs". [One book I I owned is called "The Lost Books of the Bible and The Forgotten Books of Eden".] I read the "Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" (at least all of the sections which sound the same as NT Christian theology). From reading that book (translated from Christian era manuscripts/books) I had wondered if the Christian theology contained within it existed prior the first century CE, and if so, if Christianity existed before the human Christ Jesus. If Christianity existed before the alleged birth of Jesus Christ, then it would support the idea that Jesus Christ started out as a cosmic Christ myth and only later came to be believed as a historical human Jesus Christ.
"Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs" are not classified by biblical scholars as part of the Apocrypha; they are classified by scholars as part of the Pseudepigrapha and they (at least those which claim to name the author) are known to be written in false name. They were first written hundreds of years after the time that the patriarchs (according to the Bible) supposedly lived, and thus could not have been written by the patriarchs.
slimboyfat, is the person speaking in the YouTube video about Jesus someone who is (or was) one of Jehovah's Witness? I ask that because he uses a number of the Bible verses and arguments/reasonings as the WT.
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Disillusioned JW
Well I don't need to worry about coming under ban since I no longer consider myself a JW. Hypothetically speaking, if the WT/JW religion were to come under severe ban in the USA (such as with prison sentences), I could submit a letter of Disassociation (and affirming that am irreligious and an atheist) to the elders and to the headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses, and if the government asks for proof that I am not a JW I can give them a copy of my copy of the letter. In addition, the government can check the voter registration records and see that I am a registered voter, than I am a member of one of the government's political parties, and that I have voted in the government's elections for the past 10+ years.
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Interesting fossil find in Australia
by wozza ina 95million year old fossil of a new species of crocodile found with a dinosaur in it.s stomach found story here,,,.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-12/broken-dinosaur-killer-croc-ate-dinosaur-for-last-meal/100823384?utm_source=abc_news_web&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link.
well the wts has been lying to the world .because they say no aniimal ate meat before the fairy story flood ,.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze, please provide some reliable source for your claim that "virtually every Hebrew scholar in the world agrees that the language and context of the creative days in Genesis were meant to be understood as literal 24 hr. days". I ask that because my impression is that the vast majority (though not all) of modern-day Jews, (including those who have the religion called Judaism), believe/accept biological evolution and that they don't interpret much of the Hebrew Scriptures literally. For example, consider what is said at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_evolution . It says the following.
"Biblical chronology indicates that God completed the creation of the world close to 6,000 years ago. This age is reflected in the chronology developed in a midrash, Seder Olam, but a literalist reading of the Book of Genesis is rare in Judaism. ... Most modern rabbis believe that the world is older than 6,000 years.[5] They believe such a view is needed to accept scientific theories, such as the theory of evolution. Rabbis who have this view base their conclusions on verses in the Talmud or in the midrash. ... The Rabbinical Council of America (RCA) has "maintained that evolutionary theory, properly understood, is not incompatible with belief in a Divine Creator, nor with the first 2 chapters of Genesis."[32] ... Conservative Judaism embraces science as a way to learn about the world,[citation needed] and, like Modern Orthodox and Reform Judaism, has not found the theory of evolution a challenge to traditional Jewish theology."
It thus seems to me that even if the vast majority of modern-day Hebrew scholars in the world agree that the language and context of the creative days in Genesis were meant by the ancient writer(s) to be understood as literal 24 hr. days, the vast majority of modern-day Hebrew scholars in the world don't interpret that text literally. Jewish culture adapts application of the Hebrew Scriptures to the changing society that Jews find themselves in - they change their interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures over time. From what I have read of Jewish publications and online articles written by Jews, it seems to me that in much of Judaism it thus doesn't really matter what precise meaning the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures meant, but rather what current Jews interpret it to mean for their current day. My impression is that most modern-day religious Jews consider their Holy Hebrew Scriptures as containing much mythology that should not be interpreted as being true in a literal sense. Perhaps since Genesis is a book composed by their culture (non-Christian Jewish culture) and is thus their book, their views of what of Genesis should be interpreted to mean should be more an authority as to what it means than those of young earth creationist gentile fundamentalist Christianity. However, I can't take seriously a number of Jewish religious stories and ideas, including a number of ideas about Lilith.
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Interesting fossil find in Australia
by wozza ina 95million year old fossil of a new species of crocodile found with a dinosaur in it.s stomach found story here,,,.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02-12/broken-dinosaur-killer-croc-ate-dinosaur-for-last-meal/100823384?utm_source=abc_news_web&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link.
well the wts has been lying to the world .because they say no aniimal ate meat before the fairy story flood ,.
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Disillusioned JW
Hi Sea Breeze. The idea you stated of the writer of Genesis 1:1 - 2:4 having the idea of the creative days being 24 hours long (and that analysis of the Hebrew text reveals such) is one of the key concepts (one which I learned online from a Seventh-day Adventist) which caused me to abandon belief of the biblical creation account (and by extension, belief in the Bible and in Jehovah/Yahweh God), since such a view is totally at odds and irreconcilable (at least to me) with the scientific geological (including paleontological) evidence. But, I have a question for you. Since you say " virtually every Hebrew scholar in the world agrees that the language and context of the creative days in Genesis were meant to be understood as literal 24 hr. days" what do you think of what is said at https://ncse.ngo/genesis-knows-nothing-scientific-creationism ? What is said in that article (in "Creation/Evolution Journal, Volume 4, No. 2, Spring 1983" of the National Center for Science Education) is the best reconciliation I have ever read of the Bible's creation account with science (including evolutionary science). Had I read of that article 13 years ago (or earlier) I might would remained a Christian (though not a JW), but I would have been a very non-literalist type of Christian.
What do you think of what is said at https://ncse.ngo/impossible-voyage-noahs-ark ? That article overwhelmingly makes it impossible for me to believe most of the biblical details of the story about the Ark and the associated flood, though there is some evidence for a massive local flood that wiped out lush vegetation and a human population about 9,000 to 11,000 years ago, in (or very near) what later became know as Sumeria.
What do you think of the History Channel program (I saw it two days ago on regular antenna broadcast digital TV) called "Decoding The Past: Mysteries of the Garden of Eden"? I think it makes very convincing claims.
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Disillusioned JW
How about the other big "A" - the Atom bomb? What about a nuclear fusion bomb? I don't think that such will happen as long as the USA and Russian don't directly go to war against each other. But, will they directly go to war against each other?
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Freaky, unsettling, unnerving comment from Losch in his AGM talk
by FFGhost indid anybody else catch it?.
he said that people who come back in the earthly resurrection would be given a body "reasonably similar" to the one they had prior to death.. what the almighty hootch?.
"similar"?.
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Disillusioned JW
Regarding 'reasonably similar', it is actually very similar wording/idea to a very old WT teaching (except that by saying "reasonably" makes it sound the body would be potentially less similar a body than what the WT formerly said). I was taught it (the older version of the wording/idea) when I was a young child, and I read the same idea later in newer WT literature. It is described in the book (copyright 1974) by the WT called Is This Life all there is? (one of the first books my JW father studied with my sister and I) on pages 170-172. Read especially paragraph 3 of page 1971 and paragraph 1 of page 172.
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Science news articles supporting biological evolution, including by discoveries of fossils
by Disillusioned JW in"a billion-year-old fossil of an organism, exquisitely preserved in the scottish highlands, reveals features of multicellularity nearly 400 million years before the biological trait emerged in the first animals, according to a new report in the journal current biology by an international team of researchers, including boston college paleobotanist paul k. strother.." see https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/528947 and https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/news/billion-year-old-fossil-reveals-missing-link-evolution-animals for details.. the first article listed above says the following.. "the microfossil, discovered at loch torridon, contains two distinct cell types and could be the earliest example of complex multicellularity ever recorded, according to the researchers.
the fossil offers new insight into the transition of single celled organisms to complex, multicellular animals.
modern single-celled holozoa include the most basal living animals and the fossil discovered shows an organism which lies somewhere between single cell and multicellular animals, or metazoa.".
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Disillusioned JW
Big news: Some Scientists and some Christian Theologians now claim to have reconciled the concept of human evolution with the story of a literal Adam and Eve! [Note: I had attempted to post this days ago (as part of an attempt to create a new topic), but the post had difficulty uploading from my computer (likely due to technical problems on my computer). After waiting days to see if it would later upload and noticing that it hadn't, I decided to post it here, thinking I that a double post will not be the result. Furthermore, the post in this topic has some revisions.]
The Fox news website (a very non-liberal news site) has an amazing news article that says that some scientists and Christian Theologians now claim to have reconciled the concept of human evolution with the story of a literal Adam and Eve as universal genealogical ancestors of all modern day humans (and even of all humans since the year 1 A.D.)! The article says in part the following. "Many Christians have rejected the scientific theory of evolution in part because they think it rules out the existence of a historical Adam and Eve. Yet some scientists and theologians argue that recent breakthroughs in genetics make a historical Adam and Eve compatible with evolution, and that this development may help bridge what many see as a conflict between faith and science." [Source: https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/christians-point-to-breakthroughs-in-genetics-to-show-adam-and-eve-are-not-incompatible-with-evolution# .] WOW! I encourage theistic evolutionists, evolutionary creationists, non-evolutionist creationists (including young Earth creationists), evolutionist atheists (including those who are ex-Christians), and others to read the news article.